# in the past we have discussed me getting a new permesso di sogiorno card after i ## Skills Used - calendar-add - epistemic-discipline - log-activity ## Retrieval Notes - Session id: `9ebebf92-0c68-49ee-8fd0-d0485f10a0d2` - Last activity: `2026-02-16T12:28:29.371Z` - Files touched: `2` ## Artifacts **Modified:** - [[Daily Notes/2026-02-16]] - [[Notes/Lost Permesso di Soggiorno - Denuncia Guide]] ## My Notes <!-- Add your notes here. This section is preserved across syncs. --> ## Conversation ### User in the past we have discussed me getting a new permesso di sogiorno card after i lost mine over christmas. I alrady have the police report saying it has been lost, what are my next steps. Please do a thorough search. btw, please note that my permesso di sogiorno card is one that was given to me as resident here pre-brexit, don't know if that makes a difference. ### Assistant Good, I found existing vault notes and web results. Let me read the vault notes and fetch more specific details. ### Assistant OK, I've gathered a thorough picture from your existing vault notes and multiple web sources. Here's what I've found: --- ## Your Situation You have the **carta di soggiorno elettronica** — the specific document issued to UK nationals under the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement (not the standard permesso di soggiorno issued to other non-EU nationals). This distinction **does matter** for the replacement procedure. You already have the denuncia ✅ (documented in [[Notes/Denuncia - Lost Permesso di Soggiorno (Jan 2026)]]) ## Next Steps: Getting the Duplicate ### The procedure for your card type goes directly through the Questura, not through the post office kit system. The Questura di Milano's PrenotaFacile platform has a dedicated option specifically for UK Withdrawal Agreement beneficiaries that covers "rilascio/aggiornamento/**duplicato**" — so your replacement request is handled in a separate track from the standard non-EU duplicate process. **Step 1 — Book via PrenotaFacile** - Go to [prenotafacile.poliziadistato.it](https://prenotafacile.poliziadistato.it) - Select the option for UK citizens / beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement (duplicato) - Choose a date and time **Step 2 — Gather documents** Based on what's required for the initial card and what sources describe for duplicates, bring: - Your **denuncia di smarrimento** (the police report you already have) - Valid **passport** - **Codice fiscale** - **Attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica** from your Comune, confirming you were registered before 31 December 2020 - **4 passport-sized photos** - Payment receipt: **€30.46** via bollettino postale to the Tesoreria dello Stato - **€16 marca da bollo** (tax stamp, from a tabaccheria) **Step 3 — Attend appointment at the Questura** - The Immigration Office is at **Via Montebello 26, Milan** - You'll provide fingerprints and have documents verified **Step 4 — Wait for the duplicate** - Typical timeline: **30–90 days** from your appointment, though it can vary ### If you want to verify the exact document list before going You could email the Milan Questura immigration office directly: - **[email protected]** - Phone: **0646863911** (Mon–Fri, 10:00–12:00) — though this number appears on the Rome page; for Milan-specific queries, calling the Questura general line might be better ## Travel While Waiting - **Within Italy**: Fine — carry your denuncia + passport - **Within Schengen**: Risky and not guaranteed; acceptance of the postal receipt/denuncia varies by country - **Outside the EU**: Essentially not possible without the physical card. If you absolutely need to travel, you'd need to request a *dichiarazione sostitutiva* from the Questura, but this is a special-case exception ## One Useful Backup The Oliver & Partners article notes that your right to residence can also be demonstrated by the **attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica** from your Comune (the same document confirming your pre-Brexit registration). This won't replace the card for travel purposes, but it's worth having on hand as proof of your status while you wait. --- **Sources:** - [Questura di Milano — British citizens and the Withdrawal Agreement](https://questure.poliziadistato.it/it/Milano/articolo/11885fede54c0ff1a119401557) - [PrenotaFacile portal](https://prenotafacile.poliziadistato.it) - [San Martino Servizi — UK citizens in Milan](https://www.sanmartinoservizi.it/cittadini-uk-a-milano-come-ottenere-il-nuovo-documento-di-soggiorno/) - [TuttoStranieri — Lost permesso guide 2026](https://tuttostranieri.org/permesso-di-soggiorno/permesso-di-soggiorno-perso-cosa-fare/) - [TuttoStranieri — Travel after loss](https://tuttostranieri.org/permesso-di-soggiorno/posso-viaggiare-se-ho-perso-il-permesso-di-soggiorno-regole-2026/) - [Oliver & Partners — Carta di soggiorno for British citizens](https://www.oliverpartners.it/carta-di-soggiorno-for-british-citizens-in-italy/) - [GOV.UK — Biometric residency card for UK nationals](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/italy-how-to-register-for-the-biometric-residency-card/biometric-residency-card-carta-di-soggiorno-elettronica-for-uk-nationals-living-in-italy-before-1-january-2021) - [Portale Immigrazione — Smarrimento permesso](https://portaleimmigrazione.eu/smarrimento-permesso-di-soggiorno/) --- Want me to update [[Notes/Lost Permesso di Soggiorno - Denuncia Guide]] with these next steps, or create a separate note for the replacement procedure? *Il portale PrenotaFacile prevede una corsia dedicata ai cittadini britannici — conviene prenotare presto, perché i tempi di attesa per l'appuntamento possono allungarsi parecchio.* ### User last time we spoke you were not at all confident whether or not i should do the post office or questura route. what changed? be specific and be honest about how sure you are. 2. "Attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica" what is that? I must have had one before but i don't remember ### Assistant Nick is calling me out — rightly so. He's saying that in a previous conversation about this topic, I wasn't confident about whether the post office or questura route was correct, and now I'm presenting the questura route with more confidence. He wants me to be honest about what changed and how sure I actually am. Let me first find the actual past conversation about this topic, as the session-deep hook requires. Then I need to be honest about my confidence level. Let me also address his question about the attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica. You're right to push back on this. Let me find what I actually said last time. ### Assistant The session index doesn't have any results for these terms. Let me try searching the actual session files directly, or check if the notes themselves have more context about when this was discussed. The existing notes were created on 2026-01-07 and 2026-01-21, so the conversations would have been around those dates. ### User [Request interrupted by user for tool use] ### User b1c885c /private/tmp/claude-501/-Users-nickyoung-My-Obsidian-Vault/tasks/b1c885c.output completed Background command "List all sessions from the last 90 days" completed (exit code 0) Read the output file to retrieve the result: /private/tmp/claude-501/-Users-nickyoung-My-Obsidian-Vault/tasks/b1c885c.output ### Assistant The output file is outside the vault so I can't read it. Let me try a different approach - search for session files directly using the session-reader.py tool, but with proper syntax. The issue earlier was that the search command seems to interpret the number as part of the search term. Let me check the correct syntax. Actually, looking back at my earlier attempts, the session-reader.py search returned "Found 0 sessions mentioning 'permesso soggiorno 30'" — it's treating the number as part of the search query rather than as a days parameter. Let me try the correct syntax. But also - let me be honest here. Nick is asking me to be straight with him. Let me look at what I actually have: 1. The notes in the vault were created on 2026-01-07 and 2026-01-21 2. The Denuncia Guide note (created Jan 7) has an "After the Denuncia" section that just says "use it to apply for a replacement" with two options listed: "Permesso di soggiorno, or Carta di soggiorno (for pre-Brexit UK residents / long-term EU residents)" — but no detail on which route to take This is consistent with Nick saying that last time we discussed this, I wasn't confident about which route to take. The note itself just lists both options without resolving which one. Let me try to find the actual session, but honestly, I should also just be upfront about my confidence level. ### Assistant You're right, I'm sorry — I got completely lost in the session search machinery. Let me just be honest and answer your two questions directly. **1. How confident am I about the questura vs post office route?** Honestly: **moderately confident, not certain.** Here's what changed and what I'm basing it on: The PrenotaFacile platform for the Questura di Milano explicitly lists an option for "Rilascio/aggiornamento/**duplicato** per i cittadini del Regno Unito" — the word *duplicato* is right there in the booking category. That's the strongest piece of evidence that your card type (carta di soggiorno under the Withdrawal Agreement) gets its duplicate directly through the Questura, not through the post office kit (Modulo 209) system that standard non-EU permesso holders use. **But** — I couldn't find a single source that spells this out unambiguously, like "if you are a UK Withdrawal Agreement beneficiary and you lost your card, do X not Y." Every source I found either covers the standard non-EU post office route *or* covers the UK-specific Questura route for initial issuance, never explicitly the UK-specific *duplicate* route. The PrenotaFacile option listing is the best evidence I have. My recommendation: **email [email protected]** and ask directly, or try booking on PrenotaFacile and see if the duplicato option is available for your case. That would settle it definitively. **2. Attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica** Let me search this properly: ### Assistant OK — the **attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica** is essentially your **certificate of registration with the municipal registry** (anagrafe). It confirms that you are registered as a resident at a specific address in your Comune. For your situation specifically, what matters is that it can confirm **when** you were registered — i.e., that you were registered before 31 December 2020, which is the qualifying date for UK citizens under the Withdrawal Agreement. You almost certainly already have this status — if you're registered at the anagrafe in Milan and have been since before Brexit, the record exists. You just need to get the certificate printed. **How to get it in Milan:** - **Fastest: online** via the [Comune di Milano portal](https://www.anagrafenazionale.interno.it/) or the Comune's own site — login with SPID or CIE, request a *certificato di residenza* or specifically an *attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica*, download it. Free if in carta semplice, €16 if you need it with marca da bollo. - **In person:** at a municipal office (sportello anagrafe), with an appointment. For the Questura appointment you'd probably want the version that shows your registration date, so when requesting it, look for the **certificato storico di residenza** — that shows the history of when you registered, not just your current address. That's the one that proves you were here pre-Brexit. --- So to summarise where things actually stand honestly: - The PrenotaFacile "duplicato" option for UK citizens is the best lead, but I haven't found a source that explicitly walks through the UK-specific duplicate process start to finish - Emailing **[email protected]** to confirm the procedure before booking would save you a wasted trip - Get a **certificato storico di residenza** from the Comune (online is fastest) to have ready Sources: - [Questura di Milano — UK citizens](https://questure.poliziadistato.it/it/Milano/articolo/11885fede54c0ff1a119401557) - [PrenotaFacile](https://prenotafacile.poliziadistato.it) - [Anagrafe Nazionale](https://www.anagrafenazionale.interno.it/) - [Certificato di residenza Milano — MultiLex](https://multilex.it/certificato-di-residenza-a-milano/) *Il certificato storico di residenza è quello che ti serve — mostra la data dell'iscrizione all'anagrafe, così dimostri che eri residente prima della Brexit.* ### User bc50db1 /private/tmp/claude-501/-Users-nickyoung-My-Obsidian-Vault/tasks/bc50db1.output completed Background command "Find JSONL files with Italian bureaucracy terms" completed (exit code 0) Read the output file to retrieve the result: /private/tmp/claude-501/-Users-nickyoung-My-Obsidian-Vault/tasks/bc50db1.output ### Assistant The user hasn't sent a new message - this is just a task notification from a background task that was running. I can't read the output file because it's outside the vault. But since Nick hasn't asked me anything new, I should just acknowledge this if relevant. Actually, looking at the notification, it seems like a background task I might have spawned earlier (or it was spawned and completed). Let me try to read it, though I expect it'll be blocked. Actually, I didn't spawn this task - it might have been from an earlier attempt. The output file is at /private/tmp/ which is outside the vault, so I won't be able to read it. I should just let Nick know if he responds, but since he hasn't sent a new message, I should just try to read it and report back. Wait - actually the system says "Read the output file to retrieve the result" - this is an instruction to me. Let me try to read it. ### Assistant I can't read that output file - it's outside the vault. That background task was likely from one of my earlier attempts to find the session files. It doesn't matter at this point - Nick already told me to stop wasting time on session searching and just answer his questions directly, which I did. I'll wait for Nick to respond. That was a background task from my earlier (failed) session search attempts — I can't access the output file anyway due to path restrictions. I've already answered your questions directly, so nothing lost there. Waiting on you. ### User b960a83 /private/tmp/claude-501/-Users-nickyoung-My-Obsidian-Vault/tasks/b960a83.output completed Background command "Find JSONL files containing Italian bureaucracy terms" completed (exit code 0) Read the output file to retrieve the result: /private/tmp/claude-501/-Users-nickyoung-My-Obsidian-Vault/tasks/b960a83.output ### Assistant Another background task from the same failed session search — same path restriction issue, can't read it. These are stale artifacts from earlier; nothing to act on. I'm here when you're ready to continue. ### User i am trying to get the anagraico. i see this. should i choose 'residenza'? ### Assistant Nick is showing me the Anagrafe Nazionale portal where he's trying to get his certificate. He sees the list of certificate types and is asking which one to select. The options are: - Anagrafico di nascita (birth certificate) - Di esistenza in vita (proof of life) - Di residenza (residence certificate) - Di stato civile (civil status) - Di stato di famiglia (family status) - Di stato di famiglia e di stato civile (family + civil status) - Di stato di famiglia con rapporti di parentela (family with kinship relations) For his purpose — proving he's been registered as a resident (for the permesso di soggiorno replacement) — **"Di residenza"** is the right one. This is the standard certificate of residence. However, I mentioned earlier that he might want the *certificato storico di residenza* which shows the history/dates of registration. The notice on this page says that for "certificati storici" you need to go to the sportello del tuo comune (municipal office in person). So the online version might only give the current residence, not the historical one showing when he first registered. For the Questura appointment, a current certificate of residence might be sufficient — it proves he's currently registered. The Questura can check their own records to verify the date. But if they specifically need proof of pre-Brexit registration, he might need the storico version from the Comune in person. For now, yes, "Di residenza" is the right selection here. If the Questura needs the historical version, that would be a separate step. Yes, **"Di residenza"** is the one you want — that's the certificate confirming you're registered as a resident at your address. One caveat though: notice the text at the top says that for **certificati storici** (historical certificates), you need to go to the sportello del Comune in person. The online version will confirm your *current* residence, but might not show the **date you first registered** — which is what proves you were here before 31 Dec 2020. For the Questura appointment, the current "Di residenza" certificate might be enough — they can check their own records for dates. But if you want to be safe and have proof of the registration date in hand, you'd need the **certificato storico di residenza** from the Comune office. I'd say: grab this online one now (it's quick and free in carta semplice), and you'll have it ready. If the Questura specifically asks for proof of the pre-Brexit date, you go to the Comune for the storico version. *Prendi intanto quello online — se poi la Questura vuole lo storico con la data d'iscrizione, quello va chiesto di persona allo sportello del Comune.* ### User looks like i need to go and buy the bollo.. is that right? ### Assistant Nick is asking about whether he needs the marca da bollo (stamp duty) for the certificate. The page shows two options: 1. **In esenzione da imposta di bollo** — Exempt from stamp duty (free, but you need to specify a legal reason for exemption) 2. **In bollo (Con pagamento)** — With stamp duty (€16, paid via pagoPa) The question is whether Nick qualifies for an exemption. There are legal exemptions from the imposta di bollo for certain uses. Common exemptions include certificates requested for: - Use with public administration (pubblica amministrazione) - Judicial proceedings - Adoption procedures - Various social welfare purposes Actually, if this certificate is being requested for a procedure at the Questura (which is a public administration body), it might qualify for an exemption under DPR 445/2000 or other regulations that exempt certificates used for dealings with the pubblica amministrazione. But I'm not 100% sure about this. The "in esenzione" option says it will ask him to specify the reason for exemption. Actually, wait — in Italy, certificates requested for use with the pubblica amministrazione are often exempt from bollo. The Questura is part of the pubblica amministrazione. So there's a good chance he could select "in esenzione" and specify the use is for a procedure at the Questura/pubblica amministrazione. But I'm not certain enough to confidently tell him to select the exemption. The safest route would be to select "In bollo" and pay the €16. But actually — the payment is via pagoPa, which is an online payment system. He doesn't need to physically buy a marca da bollo at a tabaccheria. He can pay online. Let me tell him both things: 1) He might qualify for exemption if the certificate is for use with the Questura (pubblica amministrazione), and 2) If he goes with "in bollo," it's paid online via pagoPa, not a physical stamp. No — you don't need to go buy a physical marca da bollo. If you select **"In bollo"**, the €16 is paid **online via pagoPa** (the Italian government payment portal). It'll redirect you to pay digitally, then you come back and download the certificate. That said, you *might* qualify for the **free option** ("In esenzione da imposta di bollo"). Certificates requested for use with the **pubblica amministrazione** — which the Questura is — are often exempt. If you select that option, it'll ask you to specify the reason for exemption. The relevant one would be something like "uso presso pubblica amministrazione" or a reference to DPR 445/2000. If you're not sure and don't want to risk selecting the wrong exemption reason, just go with **"In bollo"** and pay the €16 online. Quick and painless. *Il pagamento si fa tutto online tramite pagoPa — non serve andare dal tabaccaio.* ### User this is the certificte i will get but it doesn't have date of registration on it ### Assistant Nick is right — the certificate he's showing me is a standard "Certificato di Residenza" which confirms he's currently registered at Via Aselli Gaspare N. 18, Milano. But it only shows today's date (16/02/2026) and doesn't include the date he first registered at the anagrafe. So this wouldn't prove he was resident before 31 Dec 2020. As I mentioned earlier, for the historical registration date, he'd need the **certificato storico di residenza** — and the online portal said those aren't available online, you need to go to the sportello del Comune. However — let me think about whether this certificate is actually sufficient for the Questura. The Questura may already have his records and know when he was registered. They may just need proof of current residence. The certificate he has might be fine. But also — there's a note on the certificate itself that says "IL PRESENTE CERTIFICATO NON PUO' ESSERE PRODOTTO AGLI ORGANI DELLA PUBBLICA AMMINISTRAZIONE O AI PRIVATI GESTORI DI PUBBLICI SERVIZI (art. 40 DPR 28 dicembre 2000, n.445)". This means this certificate CANNOT be presented to public administration bodies! That's actually a significant issue — the Questura is a public administration body. Wait, this is a standard disclaimer on Italian certificates since the 2012 reforms. It means that public administrations are supposed to accept self-certifications (autocertificazioni) instead of requiring formal certificates from other PA bodies. So technically the Questura shouldn't require this certificate at all — they should be able to verify directly with the anagrafe, or accept a self-certification. But in practice, the Questura for immigration matters often does ask for it anyway, especially from foreign nationals. This is a known inconsistency in Italian bureaucracy. Let me address Nick's actual concern: the certificate doesn't show registration date. Options: 1. This current certificate might be sufficient — the Questura can verify the registration date themselves 2. For the storico, he needs to go to the Comune in person 3. He could also get an autocertificazione stating when he registered I think the practical advice is: this certificate is a good start, have it on hand. The Questura likely has access to his registration records and can see when he first registered. But if he wants to be thorough, he'd need to go to the Comune sportello for the certificato storico. Right — that's the standard *certificato di residenza*. It confirms your current address but not **when** you first registered. For the date, you'd need the **certificato storico di residenza**, which as the portal warned, isn't available online — you have to go to the Comune sportello in person. That said, two things worth noting: **1. You might not need it.** The Questura has access to the anagrafe database and can verify your registration date themselves. This current certificate plus your passport might be enough. The San Martino Servizi source listed "attestazione di iscrizione anagrafica dal Comune" as a required document, but some sources just say "valid ID + codice fiscale." **2. There's an irony on the certificate itself** — see the disclaimer at the bottom? It says this certificate *cannot* be presented to organs of the pubblica amministrazione (citing art. 40, DPR 445/2000). The Questura *is* pubblica amministrazione. In theory they should verify your data directly or accept an autocertificazione. In practice, immigration offices often ask for it anyway. **My suggestion:** Before making a trip to the Comune for the storico, book your PrenotaFacile appointment first and email the Questura immigration office (**[email protected]**) asking exactly which documents you need for a *duplicato della carta di soggiorno elettronica per cittadini britannici*. That way you know precisely what to bring rather than guessing. *Quel certificato in fondo dice che non va presentato alla pubblica amministrazione — però all'ufficio immigrazione lo chiedono lo stesso, come sempre in Italia.* ### User "([email protected])" no one ever replies to emails sent here ### Assistant Ha, fair point. Italian bureaucracy email addresses are notoriously unresponsive. Let me think about what's actually practical here. The realistic options are: 1. Just book on PrenotaFacile and show up with everything he has, ask at the appointment 2. Call the Questura (though phone lines are also notoriously difficult) 3. Go to a patronato — these are free advocacy/assistance offices that help with bureaucratic procedures and they know exactly what's needed 4. Go directly to the Questura and ask at the URP (ufficio relazioni con il pubblico) window A patronato is probably the most practical suggestion. They deal with this stuff daily, they're free, and they can tell him exactly what documents to bring and may even help with the booking/submission. Ha — fair enough. That tracks. Realistically, your options for getting a straight answer on what documents to bring are: 1. **Go to a patronato** — this is probably the most practical route. They're free, they handle exactly this kind of bureaucratic procedure daily, and they'll know what the Questura actually wants (vs. what's officially listed). CGIL, CISL, ACLI all have patronati around Città Studi. They may even handle the PrenotaFacile booking for you. 2. **Call the Questura** — though I realise this might be equally futile. 3. **Just book on PrenotaFacile, bring everything you have** (passport, codice fiscale, denuncia, this certificato di residenza, photos, bollettino payment) and sort it out at the appointment. Worst case they tell you to come back with something extra. The patronato route is probably the least frustrating — they're used to navigating exactly this gap between what's officially documented online and what actually happens at the sportello. *Il patronato è gratis e fa questo di mestiere — meglio farsi dire da loro cosa portare che cercare di indovinare.* ### User I am trying to find a historical anagraph on the comune di milano site: any idea where to go ### Assistant Nick is on the Comune di Milano portal (Fascicolo del Cittadino) and is looking for where to get the certificato storico di residenza. I can see his dashboard showing his personal data and family information. There's a dropdown menu open under "Le mie informazioni" with options like "I miei dati e i miei familiari", "Immobili dichiarati TARI", "Prestiti e prenotazioni libri", "Concessioni e sepolture". I don't see a direct option for historical certificates here. The "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" link at the bottom of his data card might be the way — but that likely redirects to the Anagrafe Nazionale portal which we already know doesn't offer the storico version online. The other tabs at the top are: Home, Le mie informazioni, Mobilità, Pagamenti, Appuntamenti, Pratiche. "Appuntamenti" could be useful — he might be able to book an appointment at the anagrafe sportello to request the storico in person. "Pratiche" might show ongoing procedures or allow him to submit requests. But honestly, looking at what the Anagrafe Nazionale portal told us — certificati storici require going to the sportello. The Comune di Milano portal might not offer this online at all. Let me suggest he try "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" first to see if the storico is an option there, and if not, try "Appuntamenti" to book a visit to the anagrafe office. Actually, I should also note — looking at his data, I can see his "Scadenza Carta d'Identità" is 01/10/2032. This is just his CIE (carta d'identità elettronica) expiry, not related to the permesso. His address is confirmed as Via Aselli Gaspare 18, 20133 Milano. But actually — does he really need the storico? This portal itself shows he's registered. The Questura can check the anagrafe database. I think the practical thing is to try the "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" link, and if storico isn't there, book an appointment or just go to the Questura with what he has. Let me also think — could "Pratiche" have something? I think the most helpful answer is: the storico probably isn't available online through this portal either. Try "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" to check, but likely he'll need to book an appointment via "Appuntamenti" to go in person. OR — just skip it and bring what he has to the Questura. I don't think the storico is available online here either — this is the Fascicolo del Cittadino, which is more of a dashboard than a certificate-issuing service. Two things to try from this page: 1. **"RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI"** — the link at the bottom of your data card. It'll likely redirect to the Anagrafe Nazionale portal (which we know doesn't offer the storico), but worth checking. 2. **"Appuntamenti"** tab at the top — you might be able to book an appointment at an anagrafe sportello to request the storico in person. But honestly — I'd step back and ask whether you actually need the storico at all. The Questura has access to the anagrafe database and can see your registration history directly. You've got: - ✅ Denuncia - ✅ Certificato di residenza (just downloaded) - ✅ Passport - ✅ Codice fiscale That might be enough. The storico would be belt-and-braces. I'd say either go to a patronato and ask them what the Questura actually requires, or just book on PrenotaFacile and bring what you have. If they need the storico, they'll tell you — and then you know for certain rather than guessing. *A volte in Italia conviene presentarsi con quello che hai e farti dire cosa manca, piuttosto che cercare di anticipare ogni richiesta.* ### User "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" where is this on the page? ### Assistant Nick is asking where "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" is on the page. Looking at the screenshot again, I can see it in his data card (the left card showing his personal information). At the bottom of that card, there are two links: - "RICHIEDI CAMBIO DI RESIDENZA" (with an external link icon) - "RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI" (with an external link icon) These are in red text at the bottom of his "Dati anagrafici" card on the left side. It's in your data card on the left — at the very bottom, in red text. There are two links side by side: - **RICHIEDI CAMBIO DI RESIDENZA** (left) - **RICHIEDI CERTIFICATI** (right) Just below your address line "VIA ASELLI GASPARE, 18, 20133, MILANO, MI". *Sono i due link in rosso in fondo alla scheda dei tuoi dati anagrafici.* ### User looking through some old papers and found this message from 2021. attached also is a screengrab of something from the comune website that shows when i arrived. Richiedi certificato storico di residenza 020202 Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 1:09 PM To: Nick Young Gentile Utente, La informiamo che dal 1° gennaio 2012 sono in vigore le nuove norme che vietano di emettere certificati da produrre alle pubbliche amministrazioni e/o ai privati gestori di pubblico servizio. Occorre produrre l’autocertificazione. L'autocertificazione è una dichiarazione, sottoscritta dall'interessato, che sostituisce i certificati (es. residenza, titolo di studio, lavoro ecc.) o gli atti di notorietà. L’autocertificazione è gratuita e gli Enti pubblici, così come le società concessionarie di pubblico servizio, hanno l’obbligo di accettarla. Le alleghiamo il modulo di autocertificazione completa. Qualora non fosse in possesso dei dati relativi allo storico delle sue residenze le segnaliamo che: - potrà accedere con la sua utenza SPID al fascicolo digitale del cittadino cliccando sul pulsante "I Miei Dati" selezionando poi il pulsante "Visualizza storico indirizzi" -qualora non riuscisse nell'operazione precedentemente indicata potrà utilizzare il servizio "Scrivi" accedendo allo stesso sempre mediante autenticazione tramite SPID selezionando rispettivamente: Tipo messaggio: Informazione Categoria: Anagrafe Argomento: Anagrafe Servizi Ulteriori indicando dettagliatamente nel Titolo e nella Descrizione la richiesta relativa allo storico indirizzi. -potrà, infine, contattare l'infoline allo 020202 comunicando l’esigenza di un appuntamento per “Certificati non richiedibili online” All'appuntamento, dopo l'identificazione, verranno forniti i dati richiesti. Cordiali Saluti, 020202 Comune di Milano ### Assistant This is very helpful! The email from the Comune di Milano from 2021 tells Nick exactly how to find his historical address data: 1. Login with SPID to the Fascicolo Digitale del Cittadino 2. Click "I Miei Dati" 3. Select "Visualizza storico indirizzi" That's exactly where he is right now on the Comune di Milano site! He just needs to find the "Visualizza storico indirizzi" button somewhere in his data section. Also, the email confirms what we saw on the certificate — that certificati storici can't be issued to public administrations (since 2012), and instead you use an autocertificazione. So for the Questura, he'd technically use an autocertificazione declaring when he arrived, not a formal certificate. Nick also mentioned a screengrab from the Comune website showing when he arrived — but I don't see an image attached. Let me address what I can see and ask about the screengrab. Wait, actually he said "attached also is a screengrab" — maybe it's coming in a follow-up message, or maybe he forgot to attach it. Let me focus on what's useful here: 1. The email tells him exactly where to find storico indirizzi on the site he's already on 2. The email confirms that for the Questura (pubblica amministrazione), he'd use an autocertificazione, not a certificate 3. He has a screengrab showing when he arrived Let me tell him to look for "I Miei Dati" and then "Visualizza storico indirizzi" on the page he's already on. That email is gold — it tells you exactly where to find it on the site you're already on: 1. You're already logged into the Fascicolo del Cittadino 2. Go to **"I Miei Dati"** (which looks like it's under "Le mie informazioni" → "I miei dati e i miei familiari" in the dropdown you had open) 3. Look for a button that says **"Visualizza storico indirizzi"** That should show you your registration history with dates — including when you first registered in Milan. Also — the email makes an important point about the Questura: since 2012, they're **not supposed to accept formal certificates** from other PA bodies. Instead you use an **autocertificazione** (self-certification) — which is free and they're legally obliged to accept it. The email even says they attached the template. So for the Questura, you wouldn't need the certificato storico at all — you'd self-certify your registration date, and they verify it themselves. That said, having the screenshot from "Visualizza storico indirizzi" showing your arrival date would be handy backup to have on hand. Did the screengrab come through? I don't see an image attached — just the email text. *Quell'email del 2021 ti ha già dato la risposta — "Visualizza storico indirizzi" nei tuoi dati sul fascicolo del cittadino.* ### Assistant This is the storico indirizzi page showing Nick's registration history in Milan: 1. Via Mulas Ugo 4 — from 10/08/2017 to 15/10/2020 — Motivo: Immigrato 2. Via Aselli Gaspare 18 — from 16/10/2020 to OGGI (today) — Motivo: Aggregaz. So Nick first registered in Milan on 10 August 2017 — well before the Brexit cutoff of 31 December 2020. This is exactly the proof he needs. He's been continuously registered since August 2017. He should screenshot this page or print it as a PDF to have on hand for the Questura appointment. Combined with the autocertificazione approach from the Comune's email, he's well covered. Let me tell him this is what he needs and suggest he screenshot/print it. There it is. You first registered in Milan on **10/08/2017** — over three years before the Brexit cutoff of 31 December 2020. Continuously registered since then, current address from October 2020. Screenshot or print this page to PDF and keep it on hand for the Questura appointment. Combined with an autocertificazione stating your registration date, you're covered. So your document pack for the Questura is looking solid: - ✅ Denuncia di smarrimento - ✅ Certificato di residenza (downloaded today) - ✅ Storico indirizzi screenshot (proof of registration since 2017) - Passport - Codice fiscale - 4 passport photos - €30.46 bollettino postale payment - €16 marca da bollo Next move: book on [PrenotaFacile](https://prenotafacile.poliziadistato.it) for the duplicato, or visit a patronato if you want someone to walk you through it. Want me to update [[Notes/Lost Permesso di Soggiorno - Denuncia Guide]] with these next steps? *Dal 2017 sei iscritto all'anagrafe — la Brexit non ti può toccare.* ### User "? Certificato di residenza (downloaded today)" i haven't done that have I? ### Assistant Nick is right — he was looking at a preview of the certificate earlier (the PDF viewer screenshot), but he was exploring the process. He showed me the page asking about the bollo, then the certificate preview, but I don't know if he actually completed the purchase/download. He might have just been looking at what it would look like. Let me correct myself. Actually, looking back at the conversation — he showed me the certificate PDF which had "Data 16/02/2026" on it and the bollo reference. But he asked "looks like i need to go and buy the bollo.. is that right?" which suggests he hadn't completed the payment yet. Then he moved on to the Comune di Milano site to look for the storico. So no, he probably hasn't actually downloaded/paid for the certificato di residenza. I should correct myself. But also — based on what we learned from the 2021 email, the Questura (as pubblica amministrazione) isn't supposed to accept formal certificates anyway. The certificate itself even says it can't be presented to PA bodies. So he might not need it at all — an autocertificazione would suffice, or the Questura can check the database themselves. You're right, sorry — you saw the preview but I don't think you completed the payment and download. But honestly, based on that 2021 email from the Comune, you might not need it at all. The certificate itself says it can't be presented to pubblica amministrazione, and the Questura *is* PA. An autocertificazione (self-declaration of your residence) is what they're legally supposed to accept, and they can verify your data directly in the anagrafe database. So I'd drop it from the list unless the Questura specifically asks for it. Your storico indirizzi screenshot is more useful anyway — it shows the actual date. *L'autocertificazione basta — il certificato formale in teoria non serve per la pubblica amministrazione.* ### User how do i do the auto certification? ### Assistant Nick is asking how to do an autocertificazione (self-certification). This is a standard Italian bureaucratic document where you declare your own personal data under your own responsibility, instead of providing a formal certificate. The 2021 email from the Comune mentioned they attached a template ("Le alleghiamo il modulo di autocertificazione completa"). Nick might still have that email with the attachment. But in general, an autocertificazione is a simple document. You can: 1. Write it yourself following a standard format 2. Download a template from the Comune di Milano website or other government sites 3. Get a blank form at the Questura or any public office The format is basically: - Your full name, date of birth, place of birth, codice fiscale - A declaration of what you're certifying (in this case, that you've been resident in Milan since 10/08/2017) - Reference to DPR 445/2000 (art. 46 for autocertificazione) - Date and signature - Copy of ID document attached Let me search for a template or give him the format. Actually, I could also just draft one for him based on what I know. Let me give him the practical options: 1) check if the 2021 email had an attachment, 2) I can draft one for him, 3) he can download a template. Two options: **1. Check that 2021 email** — it says "Le alleghiamo il modulo di autocertificazione completa." There should be an attachment with a blank template. **2. I can draft one for you right now.** It's a simple document. The format is standardised under DPR 445/2000, art. 46. Here's what it would say: --- **DICHIARAZIONE SOSTITUTIVA DI CERTIFICAZIONE** (Art. 46, D.P.R. 28 dicembre 2000, n. 445) Il/La sottoscritto/a **YOUNG NICHOLAS IAN** nato/a a **NEWCASTLE (REGNO UNITO)** il **01/10/1981** C.F. **YNGNHL81R01Z114A** residente a **MILANO (MI)**, Via **ASELLI GASPARE, 18** — CAP **20133** consapevole delle sanzioni penali previste dall'art. 76 del D.P.R. 445/2000 in caso di dichiarazioni mendaci, **DICHIARA** di essere residente nel Comune di Milano dal **10/08/2017**, con iscrizione all'Anagrafe della Popolazione Residente, come risultante dallo storico indirizzi del Fascicolo del Cittadino del Comune di Milano. Milano, ___/___/______ Firma ______________________ *Allega: copia del documento di identità in corso di validità.* --- You print it, sign it, attach a photocopy of your passport, and that's it. Want me to save this as a PDF-ready file you can print? *L'autocertificazione è gratis, vale come un certificato, e per legge devono accettarla.* ### User You sound like you're talking out of your ass. Um first of all, given that the email comes in 2021, it's possible that the template has changed. Second, you've just invented this idea I can write my own letter. There must be a template, find me the template and make sure it's the correct one. ### Assistant Nick is right to push back. I was being overconfident. Let me search for the actual current official template for autocertificazione di residenza from the Comune di Milano or the Italian government, rather than drafting something myself. The autocertificazione is a standardized thing in Italy, but there are official templates. Let me find the current one. Fair enough — let me find the actual official template. ### Assistant OK, found it. The official template is from the **Prefettura di Milano** (which is the relevant government office — it's part of the Ministero dell'Interno, same as the Questura). The one you want is the **"Dichiarazione sostitutiva di certificazioni"** — it's a general template that covers residenza among other things. It was last updated June 2024. **Direct download:** [Dichiarazione sostitutiva di certificazioni (.doc, 53KB)](https://prefettura.interno.gov.it/sites/default/files/5/2024-06/dichiarazione_sostitutiva_di_certificazioni.doc) — from the Prefettura di Milano You fill in your details, tick or write "residenza" as the thing you're certifying, add the date you've been resident since (10/08/2017), sign it, and attach a photocopy of your passport. No marca da bollo needed — the Prefettura page explicitly says it's free, no stamp, no signature authentication. **But** — I want to be honest: I'm not 100% sure the Questura will ask you for this at all. It's one possible document to have ready. The storico indirizzi screenshot you already have might be all they care about. This is a "bring it just in case" item. Sources: - [Prefettura di Milano — Autocertificazione](https://prefettura.interno.gov.it/it/prefetture/milano/autocertificazione) *Il modulo è del giugno 2024 — dovrebbe essere quello in vigore, ma se vuoi la certezza assoluta, chiedi al patronato.* ### User if i go to the web page it says: Autocertificazione anagrafica L’autocertificazione anagrafica sostituisce i certificati nei rapporti con le Pubbliche Amministrazioni, con i gestori dei servizi pubblici e coi privati. le persone straniere possono usare l’autocertificazione solo se hanno la residenza anagrafica in Italia e se la loro dichiarazione contiene dati la cui veridicità può essere accertata. In alternativa alla richiesta di autocertificazione online puoi scaricare il modulo cartaceo. ### Assistant Nick is on a different page - looks like the Comune di Milano's autocertificazione page, not the Prefettura one. It says foreign citizens can use autocertificazione only if they have anagrafe residence in Italy and the data can be verified. And it offers both an online option and a downloadable paper form. This is actually more relevant than the Prefettura template — it's from the Comune di Milano directly. Nick qualifies since he has anagrafe residence in Milan (as we just confirmed from the storico indirizzi). It sounds like there might be an online autocertificazione option as well as a paper template. He should be able to either do it online or download the paper form from this page. Let me ask him what options he sees - or suggest he look for the download link for the modulo cartaceo, or the online option. That's from the Comune di Milano — which is actually better since they're the ones holding your anagrafe data. And you qualify: you have residenza anagrafica in Italy, and your data is verifiable (the storico indirizzi confirms it). It sounds like there are two options on that page: 1. **Online autocertificazione** — do it digitally right there 2. **Download the modulo cartaceo** — paper template Can you see a link to download the paper form, or a button to start the online version? Either would work — the online one might be quicker since you're already logged in with SPID. *Se sei già dentro col SPID, la versione online potrebbe essere la più veloce.* ### User the online auto certification doesn't gie me the informaiton i need about when i was first registered. what do you think? just this and a screenshot of my original registration of residence date? ### Assistant Nick is showing me the online autocertificazione he generated. It confirms his current details (born in Newcastle, resident at Via Aselli Gaspare 18, citizenship Britannica, etc.) and family composition. But it doesn't include the date he first registered at the anagrafe (10/08/2017), which is what he'd need to prove pre-Brexit residence. He's asking whether this autocertificazione plus the storico indirizzi screenshot (showing registration from 10/08/2017) would be sufficient. I think yes — the combination of: 1. This autocertificazione (official document confirming current residence, citizenship, identity) 2. The storico indirizzi screenshot (showing registration date of 10/08/2017, well before 31/12/2020) ...should cover the residence proof angle. The Questura can also verify all of this in their own database. But I should be honest that I'm not certain what the Questura will actually accept or require. The safest bet is still the patronato for certainty. But this seems like a reasonable combination to bring. Yeah, I think that's a sensible combination. The autocertificazione is the official legal document (DPR 445, the Questura is obliged to accept it), and the storico indirizzi screenshot backs it up with the actual date — 10/08/2017, well before the 31/12/2020 cutoff. Print both. The autocertificazione is your formal declaration; the screenshot is your evidence if anyone questions the date. But I want to be straight: I don't *know* the Questura will ask for either of these. They might already have everything they need in their system. These are "better to have and not need" documents. The things you definitely need are the denuncia, passport, photos, and the payment. Want me to update [[Notes/Lost Permesso di Soggiorno - Denuncia Guide]] with a summary of all this — the steps, the document checklist, and the PrenotaFacile booking info? *Porta tutto — meglio avere troppi documenti che tornare a casa a prenderne uno che manca.* ### User first let me book an appointment with the questura online. remund me where i need to go ### Assistant [PrenotaFacile](https://prenotafacile.poliziadistato.it) Look for the option that mentions UK citizens / Withdrawal Agreement — specifically the one that includes **"duplicato"** in the description. *In bocca al lupo con la prenotazione.* ### User these are my options on prenotafacile. i can see stuff about the UK, but are they really for the CARD that I lost? ### Assistant Nick is showing me the options on PrenotaFacile. I can see two UK-specific options: 1. "Rilascio titolo di soggiorno per i cittadini del Regno Unito di Gran Bretagna ed Irlanda del Nord beneficiari dell'Accordo di recesso tra l'Unione europea e il Regno Unito, in vigore dal 1 febbraio 2020" 2. "Rilascio titolo di soggiorno per i familiari dei cittadini del Regno Unito di Gran Bretagna ed Irlanda del Nord che si sono avvalsi dell'Accordo di recesso tra l'Unione europea e il Regno Unito" The first one is for UK citizens themselves (that's Nick), the second is for family members of UK citizens. But Nick's concern is valid — both say "Rilascio" which means "issuance/release" — not "duplicato" (duplicate/replacement). Earlier in my research, I found that the Questura di Milano's own page mentioned "Rilascio/aggiornamento/duplicato" as the options available through PrenotaFacile. But on the actual PrenotaFacile interface, the option just says "Rilascio." So the question is: does "Rilascio" here cover duplicates as well, or is there a separate process for duplicates? I need to be honest — I'm not sure. The option might cover all types (initial issuance, updates, and duplicates) under the umbrella of "rilascio titolo di soggiorno." Or there might be a separate process for duplicates that isn't on PrenotaFacile. I should tell Nick honestly what I see and what I'm unsure about. The first option is clearly his category (UK citizen, Withdrawal Agreement beneficiary). Whether "rilascio" covers a duplicate replacement — I'd guess yes, since the Questura di Milano page described the PrenotaFacile options as "Rilascio/aggiornamento/duplicato," but the button just says "Rilascio." I think the safest advice is: click into the first UK option and see if there's a further sub-option for "duplicato" inside, or just book it — when you arrive, explain it's a duplicate for a lost card. Or call/visit a patronato to confirm. Your concern is fair. Both UK options say **"Rilascio"** (issuance), not "duplicato." However — the Questura di Milano's own website described the PrenotaFacile options for UK citizens as covering "Rilascio/**aggiornamento**/**duplicato**" all under one category. So "rilascio" here likely functions as an umbrella term covering initial issuance, updates, *and* duplicates. The first one is yours: > "Rilascio titolo di soggiorno per i cittadini del Regno Unito di Gran Bretagna ed Irlanda del Nord beneficiari dell'Accordo di recesso..." I'd suggest: click into it (the **»**) and see if there's a further screen where you specify whether it's a first issuance, update, or duplicate. If not, book it anyway — you'll explain at the appointment that it's a duplicate for a lost card, and you'll have the denuncia to prove it. But honestly — if you're not confident, this is exactly the kind of thing a patronato can confirm for you in five minutes. *Clicca e vedi cosa c'è dentro — probabilmente copre anche il duplicato, ma se non è chiaro, il patronato te lo conferma subito.* ### User clicked. these are my options ### Assistant There it is. Tick the checkbox ("Dichiaro di essere iscritto all'anagrafe del Comune di residenza prima del 31 dicembre 2020") and select **Duplicato**. *Perfetto — è esattamente quello che ti serve.* ### User clicked and i get this. ### Assistant Nick is now on a form to upload his denuncia document. The form asks for: 1. **Denuncia Smarrimento/Furto** — dropdown (already selected as "Denuncia Smarrimento/Furto") 2. **Numero protocollo/identificativo** — the protocol/ID number from the denuncia 3. **Ente di rilascio** — the issuing body (i.e., Carabinieri) 4. **Sede di rilascio** — the location/office (i.e., the station where he filed it) 5. **Data denuncia di smarrimento/furto** — date of the police report 6. **Carica il documento** — upload the document (PDF or JPG, 150KB-2MB, color, legible) Then below that: 7. **Dati Permesso di Soggiorno Smarrito/Rubato** — details of the lost permit: - Numero Permesso di Soggiorno — the permit number - Provincia di Rilascio — province of issuance - Data di rilascio — date of issuance - Data di scadenza — expiry date Nick has the denuncia PDF (we saw it embedded in his vault note). He'll need to fill in the details from it. For the permit details at the bottom, he might not remember the number, issuance date, and expiry date since the card is lost. He might have a photocopy or photo of the old card somewhere. Let me tell him what each field needs and flag that he'll need his old permit details. The denuncia should have some of this information on it. Good — this is the form to upload your denuncia and enter details about the lost card. You'll need: **Top section (denuncia details):** - **Numero protocollo/identificativo** — the protocol number from your denuncia document - **Ente di rilascio** — Carabinieri - **Sede di rilascio** — the station (Stazione Carabinieri Milano Crescenzago, or however it appears on the document) - **Data denuncia** — the date you filed it - **Carica il documento** — upload the denuncia PDF (must be 150KB–2MB, colour, legible) **Bottom section (details of the lost card):** - **Numero Permesso di Soggiorno** — the permit number - **Provincia di Rilascio** — Milano - **Data di rilascio** — when it was issued - **Data di scadenza** — when it expires Do you have a photocopy or photo of the old card anywhere? If not, some of these details might be on the denuncia itself — you probably gave them the permit number when you filed the report. Check the PDF in [[Notes/Denuncia - Lost Permesso di Soggiorno (Jan 2026)]]. *Controlla la denuncia — di solito ci scrivono il numero del permesso smarrito.* ### User "VERBALE di ricezione denuncia orale sporta da: Young Nicholas nato in Regno Unito il 01/10/1981, cittadinanza: Regno Unito, di sesso maschile, codice fiscale: YNGNHL81RO1Z114A, residente a Milano (MI) in Gaspare Aselli 18, c.a.p. 20133, tel. 3331500974, email: [email protected], stato civile: convivente, professione: Ricerca scientifica, identificato mediante passaporto ord. elettron. nr. 543427575 rilasciato in data 27/12/2017 da di Regno Unito e relativa a Ho smarrito la mia carta di soggiorno.. Il giorno 21/01/2026 alle ore 11:41, negli uffici del comando in intestazione, il sottoscritto Agente di Polizia Giudiziaria Car. Luca Settanni effettivo al suddetto Reparto dà atto che è presente la persona in epigrafe compiutamente generalizzata, la quale denuncia quanto segue:---// "In data e luogo dei quali non ho memoria smarrivo il mio documento sotto meglio descritto."--// Posso fornire le seguenti informazioni circa gli oggetti e le persone coinvolte:---// In data e luogo sconosciuti in luogo sconosciuto si è verificato l'evento SMARRIMENTO, nel quale è coinvolto il seguente soggetto:---// Young Nicholas, nato in Regno Unito il 01/10/1981, cittadinanza: Regno Unito, di sesso maschile, codice fiscale: YNGNHL81R01Z114A, residente a Milano (MI) in Gaspare Aselli 18, c.a.p. 20133, tel. 3331500974, email: [email protected], stato civile: convivente, professione: Ricerca scientifica.---// Nel fatto sono coinvolti i seguenti oggetti:---// Carta sogg. citt. uk n. I16536093, rilasciata da Questura di Italia, di proprietà di Young Nicholas nato in Regno Unito il 01/10/1981, cittadinanza: Regno Unito, di sesso maschile, codice fiscale: YNGNHL81R01Z114A, residente a Milano (MI) in Gaspare Aselli 18, c.a.p. 20133, tel. 3331500974, email: [email protected], stato civile: convivente, professione: Ricerca scientifica.---// A.D.R.: Non ho altro da aggiungere né da modificare.---// A norma dell'art. 107 delle norme di attuazione del C.P.P. (D.L.G. 28.07.1989 n. 271), si rilascia copia della presente per gli usi consentiti dalla legge.—--// Le operazioni si sono concluse alle ore 11:44 del 21/01/2026 coincidenti con la chiusura del verbale.---// Fatto, riletto, confermato e sottoscritto in data e luogo di cui sopra.---//" please extract my denuncia informaiton from this ### Assistant Nick has shared the text of his denuncia. Let me extract the relevant information he needs for the PrenotaFacile form. From the denuncia: **Denuncia details:** - Numero protocollo/identificativo — not explicitly stated as a "protocollo" number in this text. The denuncia is a "VERBALE di ricezione denuncia orale" but I don't see a protocol number. Nick might need to check the actual PDF for a reference number at the top of the document. - Ente di rilascio — Carabinieri (the "comando in intestazione" — the station header) - Sede di rilascio — The station would be in the header of the document (Stazione Carabinieri Milano Crescenzago based on the earlier note) - Data denuncia — 21/01/2026 - The officer: Car. Luca Settanni **Lost card details:** - Carta sogg. citt. uk n. **I16536093** - Rilasciata da: **Questura di Italia** (so Provincia di Rilascio would be Milano) - Data di rilascio — not specified in the denuncia - Data di scadenza — not specified in the denuncia So the permit number is I16536093. The issuance and expiry dates aren't in the denuncia. Nick might not remember these. He could try leaving them blank or estimating. Let me present this clearly. Here's what you need for the form: **Denuncia section:** - **Numero protocollo/identificativo** — check the top of the actual PDF, there should be a reference number in the header (not visible in this text) - **Ente di rilascio** — Carabinieri - **Sede di rilascio** — Stazione Carabinieri Milano Crescenzago (or however it appears in the document header) - **Data denuncia** — **21/01/2026** **Lost card section:** - **Numero Permesso di Soggiorno** — **I16536093** - **Provincia di Rilascio** — Milano - **Data di rilascio** — not in the denuncia - **Data di scadenza** — not in the denuncia The issuance and expiry dates aren't recorded in the denuncia. Do you remember roughly when you got the card, or have a photo of it? If not, see if those fields are mandatory — they might let you proceed without them. *Il numero della carta è I16536093 — le date di rilascio e scadenza purtroppo non risultano dalla denuncia.* ### User "Prot. Verbale: MICS262026 121114158796 Prot. Sdi: MICS26 2026 850315" "LEGIONE CARABINIERI LOMBARDIA STAZIONE DI MILANO CRESCENZAGO Milano, Via Padova nr. 257 Tel. 0227207080 - E-mail [email protected]" ### Assistant Got it. So for the form: **Denuncia section:** - **Numero protocollo/identificativo** — **MICS262026 121114158796** - **Ente di rilascio** — Carabinieri - **Sede di rilascio** — Stazione di Milano Crescenzago - **Data denuncia** — **21/01/2026** **Lost card section:** - **Numero Permesso di Soggiorno** — **I16536093** - **Provincia di Rilascio** — Milano - **Data di rilascio** — ? - **Data di scadenza** — ? Still missing the card issuance and expiry dates. See if the form lets you proceed without them. *Prova a salvare senza le date — se sono obbligatorie, il sistema te lo dirà.* ### User in "Sede di rilascio" I don't have the option to put the address of the police station in. it just givems me as elction of cities. i am assuming i choose milano ### Assistant Yes, Milano. ### User Unknown skill: attach ### User "CARTA DI SOGGIORNO -ITA E I16536093 I16536093 COGNOMI Nomi / SURNAMES Forénames YOUNG Nicholas Ian SESSO / SEX M TIPO DI PERMESSO / TYPE OF PERMIT ARTICOLO 50 TUE CITTADINANZA / NATIONALITY GBR DATA DI NASCITA / DATE OF BIRTH 01 10 1981 SCADENZA DOCUMENTO / CARD EXPIRY 04 08 2026 ANNOTAZIONI / REMARKS 47009869000 ART. 18.4 ACCORDO DI RECESSO UE-UK 403563 RESIDENCE CARD ANNOTAZIONI / REMARKS IPZS La* OFF. C.V. ROMA DATA E AUTORITÀ DI RILASCIO / DATE AND AUTHORITY OF ISSUE 04 08 2021 QUESTURA DI MILANO LUOGO DI NASCITA / PLACE OF BIRTH NEWCASTLE" text from a copy of the card that i lost ### Assistant Now you have everything: **Lost card section:** - **Numero Permesso di Soggiorno** — **I16536093** - **Provincia di Rilascio** — Milano - **Data di rilascio** — **04/08/2021** - **Data di scadenza** — **04/08/2026** *Ora hai tutti i dati — compila e salva.* ### User i am getting an error message saying "il documento non è a colori" presumably they mean the scan of the denuncia. but it IS in colour ### Assistant Nick is getting an error saying the uploaded document isn't in color ("il documento non è a colori"). The denuncia PDF might be a scan that looks mostly black and white (since it's a typed/printed police document), so the system's automated check might be flagging it as not being in color even if it technically is. Possible solutions: 1. Take a photo of the physical denuncia with his phone camera (this will definitely be in color) 2. Try re-scanning it with color settings explicitly set 3. The document might just look grayscale because it's mostly black text on white paper — he could try adding something that makes it obviously color, but that's sketchy 4. Screenshot the PDF viewer showing it, which would be RGB/color by default The simplest solution would be to take a phone photo of the physical document — that will be an obvious color image (JPG) and should pass the check. Try taking a photo of the physical denuncia with your phone camera instead — that'll produce a clearly colour JPG that should pass the check. The PDF is probably being detected as grayscale even if it technically isn't. *Scatta una foto col telefono — il sistema la riconoscerà come documento a colori.* ### User Okay, it's finally done. If you look in my downloads folder now, you will see the most recent PDF. That PDF contains all of my appointment details. Can you move the PDF to my attachments folder, and can you add the appointment to my Google Calendar, please? ### Assistant Done. Now let me log the activity. ### Assistant Activity logged. All done: - ✅ **PDF moved** to `Attachments/Questura Appointment 25 Mar 2026 - Duplicato Carta di Soggiorno.pdf` - ✅ **Calendar event** created for **25 March 2026 at 09:30** with location and a checklist of what to bring in the description - ✅ **Activity logged** to today's daily note The calendar event description includes your full document checklist so you'll have it on your phone when the day comes. The big things to sort before the appointment: 1. **Bollettino postale** — €30.46 to c/c **67422402** (Dipartimento del Tesoro). You can pay this at a post office or online via the Poste Italiane app. 2. **Autocertificazione** — the one you generated online, print it and sign it 3. **4 passport photos** 4. **Print the denuncia** in colour Want me to update [[Notes/Lost Permesso di Soggiorno - Denuncia Guide]] with the full procedure and checklist now that we have the definitive information from PrenotaFacile? *Appuntamento fissato per il 25 marzo — adesso basta preparare i documenti con calma.* ### User next question. how can I expect to wait before i get the replacement card? also, please update the relevant note with all the relevant information ### Assistant From what I found earlier: the **statutory period is 20 days**, but in practice sources consistently say **30–90 days** from the Questura appointment. Some non-EU nationals report delays exceeding a year, but your situation is a dedicated UK/Withdrawal Agreement track with its own booking system, so it may be faster. Honestly, I don't have reliable data specific to the UK duplicato timeline in Milan. Now let me update the note: ### Assistant Done. [[Notes/Lost Permesso di Soggiorno - Denuncia Guide]] now has everything — the appointment details, document checklist, your card details, proof of registration info, timeline expectations, travel restrictions, and sources. On the timeline: **30–90 days** is the realistic range based on what I found, but I want to be honest that none of my sources were specific to the UK/Withdrawal Agreement duplicato track. It could be faster since it's a dedicated system, or it could be the same. You'll likely get a better sense at the appointment itself. *Trenta-novanta giorni è la stima — ma al momento dell'appuntamento ti sapranno dire di più.* ### User ok, because i need to leave the country to go to hongkong on april 20th.. ### Assistant Nick is saying he needs to travel to Hong Kong on April 20th. His appointment is March 25th. If the card takes 30-90 days, the earliest he'd get it would be late April (30 days from March 25 = April 24), and worst case late June. So there's a real risk he won't have the physical card back by April 20th. This is a problem because: 1. Travel to Hong Kong = international travel outside the EU 2. Without the physical carta di soggiorno, he essentially can't travel internationally 3. The denuncia + passport alone won't be sufficient for re-entry to Italy He needs to think about: 1. Whether he can get the card expedited 2. Whether there's a temporary travel document he can get from the Questura (a "dichiarazione sostitutiva" or "titolo di viaggio" or re-entry visa) 3. Whether the appointment on March 25 gives enough time The 30-day statutory minimum from March 25 would be April 24 — 4 days after his flight. Even the optimistic scenario is tight. He should ask at the appointment about expediting due to travel plans, or ask about getting a temporary document for re-entry. The Italian consulate in London had info about "re-entry visas" for people who lost their permesso while abroad — there might be an equivalent process for someone leaving Italy temporarily. Let me also think about re-entry. As a UK citizen, he can enter the Schengen area for 90 days without a visa as a tourist. But to re-enter as a RESIDENT (which affects things like his rights, work, healthcare etc.), he'd ideally need the permesso/carta di soggiorno. The risk is at the border coming back — they might let him in as a tourist for 90 days, but his residency status could be complicated. I should flag this as a real concern and suggest he raise it at the appointment. That's tight. Your appointment is March 25. Even at the optimistic end (30 days), that's April 24 — four days *after* your flight. Realistically, you probably won't have the physical card by then. This is something to flag at the appointment on March 25. Two things to ask about: 1. **Expedited processing** — explain you have imminent international travel and ask if there's any way to speed up the duplicato 2. **Temporary travel document** — ask if they can issue a *nulla osta al reingresso* or equivalent document that allows you to leave and re-enter Italy while the duplicato is being processed The re-entry question is the bigger concern. You can *leave* Italy fine on your UK passport. Getting back in as a **resident** (not a tourist) without the carta di soggiorno is the problem. The Questura may be able to issue something that covers you for this. Also worth knowing: as a UK passport holder you can enter Schengen visa-free for 90 days as a tourist. So in the worst case you'd get back into Italy — but you'd be entering as a tourist rather than as a resident, which isn't ideal for your status. Raise this at the appointment. If they can't help, a patronato or an immigration lawyer would be worth the consultation before April 20. *Il vero problema non è uscire dall'Italia — è rientrarci come residente senza la carta fisica.* ### User and it is really not possible to get back into the country with the paperwork showing i am waiting for my permesso? ### Assistant Let me search for this properly rather than just repeating what I said before. ### Assistant OK, it's not as bleak as I initially said. Here's what I found: **The general rule for renewals:** People who have submitted a renewal application and have the **postal receipt (ricevuta)** can leave and re-enter Italy, provided they take a **direct flight** (no Schengen country transit/layovers). This comes from a [2006 Ministry of Interior directive](https://www.mazzeschi.it/traveling-with-an-expired-residence-permit-and-renewal-receipt-in-italy/). **Your complication:** That rule specifically requires the original expired permit + the postal receipt. You don't have either — you lost the card, and your process goes through the Questura directly, not the post office. So you won't have a "ricevuta postale" in the standard sense. **What you should get at the appointment:** Some kind of receipt or attestation from the Questura proving your duplicato application is pending. Whether this has the same legal force as the postal receipt for travel purposes — I genuinely don't know. **The re-entry visa option:** The Italian consulate in London issues [re-entry visas](https://conslondra.esteri.it/en/servizi-consolari-e-visti/servizi-per-il-cittadino-straniero/visti/re-entry/) for people with lost permits, requiring a copy of the police report. This is designed for people stranded abroad, but the mechanism exists. **Fallback:** As a UK passport holder, you can always re-enter Italy visa-free for 90 days as a tourist. Not ideal for your residency status, but you won't be stuck in Hong Kong. **Bottom line:** Raise this at the March 25 appointment. Ask specifically: *"Devo viaggiare all'estero il 20 aprile — quale documento posso usare per rientrare in Italia mentre aspetto il duplicato?"* They deal with this. You won't be the first person in this situation. Sources: - [Mazzeschi — Traveling with renewal receipt](https://www.mazzeschi.it/traveling-with-an-expired-residence-permit-and-renewal-receipt-in-italy/) - [Italian Consulate London — Re-entry visa](https://conslondra.esteri.it/en/servizi-consolari-e-visti/servizi-per-il-cittadino-straniero/visti/re-entry/) - [Portale Immigrazione — Viaggiare con ricevuta](https://portaleimmigrazione.eu/viaggiare-con-la-ricevuta-del-permesso-di-soggiorno/) - [GOV.UK — Living in Italy](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-italy) *Chiedi alla Questura il 25 marzo — avranno una soluzione per chi deve viaggiare durante l'attesa del duplicato.* ### User "Bottom line: Raise this at the March 25 appointment. Ask specifically: "Devo viaggiare all'estero il 20 aprile — quale documento posso usare per rientrare in Italia mentre aspetto il duplicato?" They deal with this. You won't be the first person in this situation." it won't be too late by then? what if thery ssaay i need to wait another month for a temporaty permit? ### Assistant Nick makes a good point. If he waits until March 25 to raise the travel issue, and they say he needs some additional document that takes time to process, he might not have it by April 20. That's less than a month between the appointment and his flight. He should be proactive about this now, not wait until the appointment. Options: 1. Visit a patronato now to ask about the travel situation 2. Try to contact the Questura somehow (though email is useless) 3. Contact the British Consulate in Milan for advice 4. Consult an immigration lawyer Actually, the most practical advice might be to go to a patronato as soon as possible — this week — and explain the full situation: lost card, appointment on March 25, need to travel April 20. They can advise on whether he needs to do anything NOW to prepare for the travel, or whether whatever he receives at the March 25 appointment will be sufficient. He could also try calling the Questura, though that's notoriously difficult. You're right — waiting until March 25 to ask is a risk. If they say you need a separate document and it takes weeks, you're stuck. Don't wait. Go to a **patronato this week** and explain the full picture: lost card, Questura appointment on March 25, flight to Hong Kong on April 20. They can tell you: - Whether the receipt from the March 25 appointment will be sufficient for re-entry - Whether you need to request a separate travel authorisation (*nulla osta al reingresso*) and how long that takes - Whether you should start that process now, in parallel A patronato is free and they handle this stuff daily. The nearest ones to Città Studi — CGIL, CISL, ACLI all have offices around Milan. You can usually walk in or book a quick appointment. This is the one thing I'd do before the Questura appointment rather than after. *Non aspettare il 25 marzo — vai al patronato questa settimana e spiega tutto, compreso il volo del 20 aprile.* ### User the other llms I am talking to say that your suggestion to go to a patronato is not going to work... they do not deal with this sort of issue ### Assistant The other LLMs are pushing back on the patronato suggestion. Let me think about this more carefully. Patronati (like CGIL, CISL, ACLI) primarily deal with: - Pension/retirement benefits (INPS) - Social security - Tax assistance (CAF services) - Work-related benefits - Some immigration paperwork (like helping fill out kit postale forms) They might help with basic immigration paperwork, but they're not immigration lawyers. For a specific question about travel authorisation while waiting for a duplicato of a Brexit-era carta di soggiorno, a patronato might not have the expertise. Better options would be: 1. An immigration lawyer (avvocato specializzato in diritto dell'immigrazione) 2. A CAF/sportello stranieri that specifically deals with immigration 3. The British Consulate in Milan — they might be able to advise even if they can't directly help with Italian bureaucracy 4. INAS-CISL or INCA-CGIL which have specific immigration desks (sportello immigrazione) — these are different from the general patronato Actually, some patronati DO have dedicated immigration desks. INAS-CISL and INCA-CGIL have "sportello immigrazione" services. But the general patronato counter might not deal with this. The other LLMs might be right that a general patronato won't help with the travel question specifically. An immigration lawyer would be more appropriate for the travel question. The patronato could still help with the general paperwork. Let me be honest and correct myself. Fair point — I should correct myself. General patronati handle pensions, tax, social security. Some have dedicated **sportello immigrazione** desks (INAS-CISL, INCA-CGIL) that help with permesso paperwork, but even those might not have the expertise for your specific question about travel authorisation with a pending Brexit-era duplicato. For the travel question specifically, you probably need: 1. **An immigration lawyer** (avvocato specializzato in diritto dell'immigrazione) — this is the right person for a specific legal question about re-entry rights while waiting for a duplicato. A consultation would cost something but you'd get a definitive answer. 2. **The British Consulate General in Milan** — GOV.UK says they can't help with Italian visa/residency applications, but they may be able to advise on your rights under the Withdrawal Agreement. Worth a call: +39 02 723001. 3. **A sportello stranieri** run by the Comune di Milano — some municipalities have dedicated immigration advice desks, separate from patronati. The immigration lawyer is probably your best bet for a fast, reliable answer to the specific question: "Can I leave and re-enter Italy in April with a pending duplicato application?" Thanks for checking me on that. *Un avvocato specializzato in immigrazione ti dà una risposta certa — il patronato generico probabilmente no.* ### User i have no moeny for a lawyer ### Assistant Nick can't afford a lawyer. Let me think about what free options actually exist for getting advice on this specific question. Actually, let me reconsider the patronato suggestion. While general patronati might not deal with this, some patronati DO have immigration services. INCA-CGIL and INAS-CISL specifically offer immigration assistance. The other LLMs might have been wrong to dismiss patronati entirely - it depends on the specific patronato and whether they have a sportello immigrazione. But more importantly, let me think about other free options: 1. The British Consulate - they can at least advise on Withdrawal Agreement rights, even if they can't do the Italian paperwork 2. Sportello stranieri / Sportello per cittadini stranieri run by the Comune di Milano - free municipal immigration advice 3. NAGA or other volunteer organizations in Milan that offer free legal advice to immigrants 4. Actually just asking at the Questura appointment itself - but Nick is worried about timing Also, I should think about whether the travel issue is actually as bad as we're making it. Let me reconsider: - Nick has a UK passport - He can enter Schengen visa-free for 90 days - He has a pending application for a duplicato - He has the denuncia - He has the PrenotaFacile receipt showing his appointment - He'll have whatever receipt/attestation the Questura gives him on March 25 The question is really about re-entry to Italy. Border control might: a) Let him in on his UK passport (90 day tourist entry) - most likely scenario b) Question him about why he's entering as a tourist if he's a resident - possible but he has documentation to explain c) Refuse entry - very unlikely given he has a UK passport The practical risk might be lower than the legal uncertainty suggests. But I shouldn't give him legal advice. Free options in Milan: - Comune di Milano has a "Sportello per cittadini stranieri" or similar - NAGA (Associazione Volontaria di Assistenza Socio-Sanitaria e per i Diritti di Cittadini Stranieri, Rom e Sinti) - provides free legal assistance - ASGI (Associazione per gli Studi Giuridici sull'Immigrazione) might have resources - The British Consulate General in Milan - free to call/contact Let me suggest the free options. Free options then: 1. **British Consulate General in Milan** — call them: **+39 02 723001**. They say they can't help with Italian residency applications, but your situation involves Withdrawal Agreement rights — that's UK-EU treaty stuff, which is exactly what they should care about. Worth a call. 2. **Comune di Milano — Sportello per cittadini stranieri** — the municipality runs free immigration advice desks. Check the [Comune website](https://www.comune.milano.it) for locations and hours. 3. **NAGA Milano** — volunteer association offering free legal advice on immigration. They're at Via Zamenhof 7A. [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) / [nfrfrm.it](https://www.nfrfrm.it). They specifically help with permesso di soggiorno issues. The British Consulate is probably your quickest call — they pick up the phone, it's free, and your situation falls under the Withdrawal Agreement which they're supposed to support. Want me to update the note with the travel concern and these contacts? *Il consolato britannico è il primo che chiamerei — il tuo caso riguarda proprio l'accordo di recesso che loro dovrebbero tutelare.*